John Hick (pictured below), in The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age
(Westminster John Knox Press, 1993), writes:It was for more than a thousand years a firm Christian dogma that EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, 'Outside the church there is no salvation.' Thus for example the Council of Florence (1438-45) declared that 'no one remaining outside the Catholic Church, not just pagans, but also Jews or heretics or schematics [sic], can become partakers of eternal life; but they will go to the 'everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels,' unless before the end of life they are joined to theThe last sentence would be true of the many Catholics whose ideas are informed primarily by the secular media or dissident Catholic periodicals like the National (anti-)Catholic Reporter. Those who undersand the relationship between the teachings of Vatican II and these traditional teachings realize there's nothing fundamentally "revisionist" about Vatican II documents. Doctrinal development does not mean change.Church' (Clarkson 1961, 78: Denzinger, 714). But very few Catholics would dream of affirming this today, and most who are asked about it only find it embarassing." (p. 6)
We've been through some of this before, but to review, the Church doesn't deny extra ecclesiam nulla salus, any more than it denies that there is any salvation outside of Jesus Christ. But as it acknowledges the possibility of those who are saved through J.C. without knowing anything about the historical Jesus, it likewise acknowledges the possibility of those who are saved through incorporation in Church as the Mystical Body of Christ without benefit of formal membership in the
Catholic Church.
[A tip of the hat to Edgar Foster for the Hick reference--gratia tibi]
9 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Saturday, October 15, 2011
CATHOLIC CULTURE REJECTS VATICAN COUNCIL II, DENIES DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND ASKS FOR DONATIONS
To knowingly reject an infallible teaching is a mortal sin. Catholics who donate would not have to go for Confession?
The President of Catholic Culture Jeffrey Mirus will not affirm the dogma Cantate Domino ,Council of Florence and neither will be affirm Vatican Council II in accord with the dogma.(1)Catholic priests in Rome who offer the Novus Ordo Mass in Italian have endorsed Cantate Domino and Vatican Council II and other Magisterial documents in agreement with the dogma(2).
Jeffrey Mirus is also contradicted by Catholic priests here who say there is no case of the baptism of desire known to us(3).To reject the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus claiming it is contradicted by those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire is heresy.
He misinterprets Vatican Council II and misleads Catholics with the report on the Internet 'Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard Feeney'.- Lionel Andrades
______________________________
CONTINUED
Anonymous
said...
continued
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1.
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2011
CATHOLIC CULTURE PROVIDES A DEFINITION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-provides-definition-of.html
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 13, 2011
Catholic Culture suggests those who know about the Church and yet do not enter is the only ordinary means of salvation and these cases are known to us
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-those-who.html
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2011
CATHOLIC CULTURE SUGGESTS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE OR THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE EXPLICITLY KNOWN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-that-those.html
Trinity Communications of Jeff Mirus and Catholic Culture is a legal entity that is spreading falsehood about the Catholic Faith.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/trinity-communications-is-legal-entity.html
2.
Friday, October 7, 2011
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
TUESDAY, AUGUST 9, 2011
FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/frtullio-rotondo-affirms-cantate-domino.html#links
WEDNESDAY, JULY 20, 2011
CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/cantate-domino-council-of-florence-on.html
SATURDAY, JULY 16, 2011
BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/brazilian-priest-says-vatican-council.html#links
3.
Wednesday, August 10, 2011
CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/catholic-priests-in-rome-agree-with.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-rejects-vatican.html
Anonymous
said...
Saturday, October 22, 2011
MISSION SUNDAY : ANNOUNCEMENT
Mission Sunday: Announcement
Dear Catholics,
Please note that contrary to the widespread misinformation there is no Magisterial text which says Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston was excommunicated for heresy. So the Church has not retracted the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined by three Church Councils.
Secondly, we do not know any case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. So Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma. According to Cantate Domino, Council of Florence and Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7) all non Catholics, Christians included need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7, LG 14) to avoid the fires of Hell.
Please place this announcement in any media available, Catholic or secular, no permission is required.-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/mission-sunday-announcement.html
Anonymous
said...
Thursday, November 24, 2011
ECCLESSIOLOGY OF ENGLISH BISHOPS HIT BY TWO ERRORS 1) VISIBLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE 2) FR.LEONARD FEENEY EXCOMMUNICATED FOR THE SAME VIEW AS POPES, SAINTS AND DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION
English bishops use an interpretation of Magisterial texts which contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction as taught to Catholic seminarians.
It is assumed by the bishops that those saved among Christians and non Christians, in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, with ‘the seeds of the Word’ or in imperfect communion with the Church, are known to us in the present times and this is the ordinary way of salvation. They imply that this is an exception to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. So Protestants just have to believe in Jesus and they are saved in their religion through this ordinary means.This is a rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).Vatican Council II indicates that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (LG 14, AG 7).
It is contradictory for the bishops to say:
De facto every one needs to be an explicit, visible member of the Church of salvation and defacto non Catholics in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire can be saved without the baptism of water.
It is not contradictory when they say:
Defacto every one with no exception needs to enter the Church as taught by ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible statement’.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)
De jure a person can be saved with the baptism of desire.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)
It is contradictory when they believe:
De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation.(Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).
De facto some people can be saved in invincible ignorance.(Lumen Gentium 16).
It is not contradictory when they believe:
De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. (Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14,Ad Gentes7).
De jure some people can be saved in invincible ignorance.(Lumen Gentium 16).
CONTINUED
Anonymous
said...
CONTINUED
English bishops use an interpretation of Magisterial texts which contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction as taught to Catholic seminarians.It is contradictory to common sense , even a lay man can notice, to imply that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are de facto known to us
Due to the contradiction in the interpretation young candidates with a religious vocation in England have to say everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation in the present times but there could be defacto exceptions like those saved with the baptism of desire. The baptism of desire is assumed to be visible and so is an exception to the dogma.The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/vocation-director-in-southwarkengland.html
If the baptism of desire was implicit for candidates it would not contradict the dogma, it would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma. It is an error for the bishops to interpret those saved with the baptism of desire as being de facto known to us.
Candidates with a religious vocation in England would also have to accept that Fr. Leonard Feeney was ‘condemned’ for holding the same view as the popes, including Pope Pius XII, who referred to 'the dogma', the saints and the dogma itself. Since the bishops assume that Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there are no exceptions to the dogma and that the baptism of desire etc are not exceptions. For the bishops the baptism of desire is defacto and explicitly known to us and so Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong. So were the popes and saints.
(a) No one knows of a particular case of someone being saved with the baptism of desire even though it is being assumed as being visible (b) Fr.Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the thrice-defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They were all saying that de facto every adult needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. They did not consider the baptism of desire as explicit but knew that it was always implicit.
They imply that Vatican Council II has changed our concept of Church since those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc are visible and de facto known to us in the present times.
-Lionel Andrades
continued
Anonymous
said...
continued
CATHOLIC BISHOPS CONFERENCE OF ENGLAND AND WALES SAYS THOSE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE, INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE VISIBLE TO US
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-bishops-conference-of-england.html
ECUMENISM OF THE ENGLISH BISHOPS CONTRARY TO VATICAN COUNCIL II
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/ecumenism-of-english-bishops-contrary.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/ecclessiology-of-english-bishops-hit-by.html
Anonymous
said...
Monday, November 28, 2011
USCCB, CCBEW, CATHOLIC ANSWERS, CUF IMPLY POPE PIUS XII SUGGESTED IN THE LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE THAT THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE WAS AN EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
This is false. The letter refers to the dogma and indicates that de facto everyone needs to enter the Church and it also mentions that de jure a non Catholic can be saved with the baptism of desire. The Letter was critical of the Archbishop of Boston who indicated that those saved with the baptism of desire are defacto cases, known and visible. The Letter supports Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine.
For the baptism of desire to be an exception to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation it would have to be visible and known. Implicit unknown to us baptism of desire is not an exception to the dogma which indicates every one must me a visible member of the Church.
continued
Anonymous
said...
continued
The Letter mentions 'the dogma', 'the infallible statement' and affirms the baptism of desire. It does not imply that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma since the baptism of desire is always implicit .God accepts an implicit desire he can also save someone in implicit invincible ignorance. So implicit baptism of desire or invincible ignorance cannot be an exception to the dogma. The dogma refers to all people needing to defacto enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
There are those who are members of the Church as taught by the dogma and there are those who are united to the Church only by desire. They are defacto members who have Catholic Faith and have received the baptism of water. Those who have received the baptism of desire are de jure in principle united to the Church only by desire. These cases are known only to God.
The Letter of the Holy Office during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was addressed to the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing directly and not to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was because the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits, who implied wrongly, that these cases could be exceptions to the dogma and to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was the Archbishop who believed like the Jesuits at Boston College that every one with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation. The Archbishop believed that there could be non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. Implying, of course, that these cases are visible, explicit and known to us and so are an exception to the dogma.
continued
Anonymous
said...
continued
The Letter mentions 'the dogma', 'the infallible statement' and affirms the baptism of desire. It does not imply that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma since the baptism of desire is always implicit .God accepts an implicit desire he can also save someone in implicit invincible ignorance. So implicit baptism of desire or invincible ignorance cannot be an exception to the dogma. The dogma refers to all people needing to defacto enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
There are those who are members of the Church as taught by the dogma and there are those who are united to the Church only by desire. They are defacto members who have Catholic Faith and have received the baptism of water. Those who have received the baptism of desire are de jure in principle united to the Church only by desire. These cases are known only to God.
The Letter of the Holy Office during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was addressed to the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing directly and not to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was because the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits, who implied wrongly, that these cases could be exceptions to the dogma and to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was the Archbishop who believed like the Jesuits at Boston College that every one with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation. The Archbishop believed that there could be non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. Implying, of course, that these cases are visible, explicit and known to us and so are an exception to the dogma.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/usccb-ccbew-catholic-answers-cuf-imply.html
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